Curse

harpharp · Jul 29, 2009, 04:04 PM // 16:04

and forced grouping was the reason why i quit wow for guild wars

byteme! · Jul 29, 2009, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by harpharp

and forced grouping was the reason why i quit wow for guild wars

IF certain people get their way, you'll be going back to WoW for the SAME REASON. Knock on wood that it doesn't happen.

Gun Pierson · Jul 29, 2009, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I'd rather go to the reality of many other games that have free updates.

That's your right as a customer, but judging and ridiculing people because they wouldn't mind to pay for the upgrade is cheap. I'm sure that all the poeple who want them, prefer to have them for free. But if the only choice is to pay for them or no 7 heroes at all, I wouldn't mind to pay for them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

There is a big difference between henchies and heroes.

The difference is the skillbar and armor/weapon setup. In a game that has many different areas and different opponents, it's normal people want to adjust the setup accordingly to what they think would be a good synergy or just to experiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

This is a multiplayer online game. You play in the same world as me.

No, PvE is an instanced game, we don't play in the same world. Our avatars can use the same towns to start from so we have the option to co-op an instanced area.

I think you're really playing the wrong game, but you don't really play it anymore like you posted a few times, just the forum game.

byteme! · Jul 29, 2009, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

This is a multiplayer online game. You play in the same world as me. The game you want is a singleplayer offline game where you have no effect on my world and I have no effect on yours.

You're playing the wrong &^%!@! game. Multiplayer and Singeplayer has been an OPTION since DAY 1. I don't share my instances with you unless you're in my party. Never ever. You say we share the same world and yet we're worlds apart. This isn't WoW. Get a grip.

UnChosen · Jul 29, 2009, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

...

Where's the proof that pugs are minority....especially since people with heroes generally ignore everything in towns. When there's a Z Quest...I see almost equal number of people forming and players with a 4 on their head adding henchies and leaving. In places without players I don't see many people with heroes coming in and leaving either. (And yes I've sat in a lot of empty mission outposts just chatting, so I know I didn't "miss" them)

Choice is only about multiple options? I wish that is true....then I can ask for a buff to shadow form and like 90% of other skills without worrying about anything.

The whole point is that there are definitely incentives to avoid pugging even for SOCIAL people, and it has nothing to do with skills or attitude of players. I know this because I am seeing the same effect essential destroying my guild activities right now.

Here is a simplified outline of what happens:

Guildie 1: Hey guys, I'm doing the X mission right now...anyone want to help?

Me and guildie 2-6: Sure, we're just finishing up our Z quest right now, it'll probably only take 5-10 minutes.

Guildie 1: OK...

Me and guildie 2-6: *rushing to finish the mission in 10 minutes*...Hey guildie 1 we're coming right now.

Guildie 1: Ohh Nevermind, I figured I'll save a bit of time if I used my heroes.

~40 minutes later~

Guildie 1: Hey guys, I really need some help with Y mission, its far harder than the last one.

Guildie 2-6: *Silence*

~Repeat for several days/weeks~

Guildie 1 has left the guild.

Regardless of how skillful players are or how nice they are or how many players there are....being able to click a few buttons for full team is generally way too tempting, since it gives the illusion that you are doing stuff faster because no time is spent forming a group. If guildie 1 would have waited that 10 min, we could've probably done mission X in less than 20 min for 30 min total in comparison to his 40 min with heroes. AND we could've helped with the second harder mission without being interrupted again.

Never underestimate people's impatience. And do people seriously believe that with 7 heroes minimizing any time advantage a full player group has...that the remaining people won't jump ship to heroes instead?

Z Quest, whether intended or not, removed the barrier by making a lot of people gather in one place....of course if the mission actually takes a bit of strategy and/or skill discussion (ex. Eotn Dungeons)...there's a chance people would just go with heroes instead to "save time".

ITS NOT A CHOICE when one is so blatantly favourable regardless of every other variables. If everything is only about choice regardless of effectiveness....then ask ANet to leave shadow form, all PvE skills, and speed clear alone, and reverse all the nerfs ever done in PvE. Its only a choice and because its instanced, it affects no one else, right?

Now then...there's 2 ways to look at it. One is that heroes are "unbalanced" (notice the quotes) because of convenience, or its that full player groups are inherently disadvantaged by design.

Either way it means that there has to be some changes to encourage group play along with 7 heroes...or limit heroes. I prefer the grouping incentives + heroes option....

Lishy · Jul 29, 2009, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Here is a simplified outline of what happens:

Guildie 1: Hey guys, I'm doing the X mission right now...anyone want to help?

Me and guildie 2-6: Sure, we're just finishing up our Z quest right now, it'll probably only take 5-10 minutes.

Guildie 1: OK...

Me and guildie 2-6: *rushing to finish the mission in 10 minutes*...Hey guildie 1 we're coming right now.

Guildie 1: Ohh Nevermind, I figured I'll save a bit of time if I used my heroes.

~40 minutes later~

Guildie 1: Hey guys, I really need some help with Y mission, its far harder than the last one.

Guildie 2-6: *Silence*

~Repeat for several days/weeks~

This happens to me a lot. And that's also exactly why I think "Get a good guild" is just a false, band-aid argument.

I want 7 heroes with pve skills. And if people think they're overpowered, gee, imagine a full team of 8 huamns who can follow directions and co-ordinate a strategy.

Some of the arguments against 7 heroes in this thread are some of the stupidest ever. But hey. What am I to stress that? It's not like you can convince them of anything. Because they're either:

A. Trolls

B. Playing the wrong game and has a different perception of GW than anet intended

C. Just plain self-centered idiots who think their opinion is right and will put up illogical arguments whenever they can just for the sake of being stubborn

Not giving out names, but if you're going to argue against 7 heroes, find a real reason for such a limitation.
It can't be denied that no matter the way of obtaining 7 heroes, it will be a huge success. Be it microtransactions (Which would be a huge financial success for anet), or a quest or whatever, there's no reason not to.

Gun Pierson · Jul 30, 2009, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Where's the proof that pugs are minority....

Pre Nightfall verus post Nightfall or forced pugging versus free will. If you don't see a difference in those two eras then you must be blind. We were forced to pug as henchies were not skillful enough because of their fixed bars. The cure was the introduction of heroes which ofcourse puggers will see as the downfall of this game.

I can counter argument the other things in your complete post but instead I'm gonna add that I wouldn't mind having both 'grouping incentives and the 7 heroes option', all within reason and common sense ofcourse. It's better imo to find common ground to stand on and try to achieve something together from there on.

Bryant Again · Jul 30, 2009, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

You're playing the wrong &^%!@! game. Multiplayer and Singeplayer has been an OPTION since DAY 1. I don't share my instances with you unless you're in my party. Never ever. You say we share the same world and yet we're worlds apart. This isn't WoW. Get a grip.

The first half is one I agree with. The second part is where things get a bit tricky since "you're not in my gameworld" is a pretty risky argument since it can apply to any single game change one desires, from overpowered skills to Hello Kitty armor.

But still, I still feel that if playing with other players was accessible and fun that adding even 11 heroes wouldn't affect the pugging playstyle.

harpharp · Jul 30, 2009, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Where's the proof that pugs are minority....especially since people with heroes generally ignore everything in towns. When there's a Z Quest...I see almost equal number of people forming and players with a 4 on their head adding henchies and leaving. In places without players I don't see many people with heroes coming in and leaving either. (And yes I've sat in a lot of empty mission outposts just chatting, so I know I didn't "miss" them)

Choice is only about multiple options? I wish that is true....then I can ask for a buff to shadow form and like 90% of other skills without worrying about anything.

The whole point is that there are definitely incentives to avoid pugging even for SOCIAL people, and it has nothing to do with skills or attitude of players. I know this because I am seeing the same effect essential destroying my guild activities right now.

Here is a simplified outline of what happens:

Guildie 1: Hey guys, I'm doing the X mission right now...anyone want to help?

Me and guildie 2-6: Sure, we're just finishing up our Z quest right now, it'll probably only take 5-10 minutes.

Guildie 1: OK...

Me and guildie 2-6: *rushing to finish the mission in 10 minutes*...Hey guildie 1 we're coming right now.

Guildie 1: Ohh Nevermind, I figured I'll save a bit of time if I used my heroes.

~40 minutes later~

Guildie 1: Hey guys, I really need some help with Y mission, its far harder than the last one.

Guildie 2-6: *Silence*

~Repeat for several days/weeks~

Guildie 1 has left the guild.

Regardless of how skillful players are or how nice they are or how many players there are....being able to click a few buttons for full team is generally way too tempting, since it gives the illusion that you are doing stuff faster because no time is spent forming a group. If guildie 1 would have waited that 10 min, we could've probably done mission X in less than 20 min for 30 min total in comparison to his 40 min with heroes. AND we could've helped with the second harder mission without being interrupted again.

Never underestimate people's impatience. And do people seriously believe that with 7 heroes minimizing any time advantage a full player group has...that the remaining people won't jump ship to heroes instead?

Z Quest, whether intended or not, removed the barrier by making a lot of people gather in one place....of course if the mission actually takes a bit of strategy and/or skill discussion (ex. Eotn Dungeons)...there's a chance people would just go with heroes instead to "save time".

ITS NOT A CHOICE when one is so blatantly favourable regardless of every other variables. If everything is only about choice regardless of effectiveness....then ask ANet to leave shadow form, all PvE skills, and speed clear alone, and reverse all the nerfs ever done in PvE. Its only a choice and because its instanced, it affects no one else, right?

Now then...there's 2 ways to look at it. One is that heroes are "unbalanced" (notice the quotes) because of convenience, or its that full player groups are inherently disadvantaged by design.

Either way it means that there has to be some changes to encourage group play along with 7 heroes...or limit heroes. I prefer the grouping incentives + heroes option....

thats funny.. when i was in lfg for z bounty (justicar thommis) earlier almost every one was in lfg with 5 or 8, 6 or 8 human players. Out of the 12,13 groups in lfg, only like 1 or 2 has like 4/8 with 3 heroes in it. One of the player in lfg was asking for heroes with discordway. Why did that happen? because earlier, when we puggin to lfm people, the puggers THEMSELVES left without saying a word. So it was the puggers themselves that forced him to solo, when he had given lfg a chance. If you want to argue, go qq about certain aspects of the game being op.

You gave that people having heroes cause your guild to die. But we dont exactly know everything abt your guild and your activities. It could also be that your guild has done little to ensure members stay in your guild. If you like, you can always join the guild i am in. The leader and officer there are still doing stuff with each other human players and people are friendly

. Also, if heroes were so insanely great, why did guildie 1 ask for help with Y mission when he could just do with heroes?

People would go with heroes to "save time" for missions that req strategy for example eotn dungeons? have you tried doing justicar thommis solo with henchies and heroes before?

the incentives for grouping are already there. Can heroes use pve skills? can heroes use the correct pve skill at the correct time? can heros know when to drop spirits at the correct place (e.g fs)? can heroes know when to move out of a ward and when not to? can heroes know how to move by themselves and not pull aggro? can heroes know when to run back especially if too many groups have been pulled?

in almost every zbounty and mish that i done grouping with people, very few people wants heroes. Once i added olias after getting 5 other human players because i believe he has a good mm skillset and one person asked me why did i do that instead of getting a human mm. After i told him that, he left the group straightaway

the way i see it. Heros didnt kill off pugging. Its the players who forced some of them to switch to heroes. Majority are still lfg. Whats the point of lfg if u dont have a certain skillset cos no one who pugs will take you? and that, belongs to the minority who went with heroes.

pamelf · Jul 30, 2009, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

To all the people saying they want a solo server...fine...but don't impose your garbage playstyle on my multiplayer game. If you want a singleplayer server, make it offline and also none of your crap can come on to the real online server. That is part of the reason the game is so phucked up...broken solo OP farmers who think they should be able to do whatever they wish in an online multiplayer game.

This is the argument that keeps coming up, and is frankly the worst, and most ineffectual argument you could possibly use.

I know I'm not the only one who will say the only reason I bought this game because it was stated from the beginning that you could play the game solo if you so chose. If it had said on the box that it was multiplayer only and that all single player content would be offline, I would simply not have bought this game at all.

Anet knew who they were marketing to. And it was to people like me, and all those who want the option of BOTH SOLO AND MULTIPLAYER. They marketed is as a choice.

Scary · Jul 30, 2009, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by pamelf

This is the argument that keeps coming up, and is frankly the worst, and most ineffectual argument you could possibly use.

I know I'm not the only one who will say the only reason I bought this game because it was stated from the beginning that you could play the game solo if you so chose. If it had said on the box that it was multiplayer only and that all single player content would be offline, I would simply not have bought this game at all.

Anet knew who they were marketing to. And it was to people like me, and all those who want the option of BOTH SOLO AND MULTIPLAYER. They marketed is as a choice.

All to true,

Concerning the PvP part, ofcourse we need only to be with people,
That is the most challenging experience, no hench or hero should be allowed
in what form of PvP. so hero battle's..sry, its no real PvP to mine opinion.

But PvE.. Loved it from day 1. And mostly the choice that you can play solo
if you want.
May 2005.. A whole new playground opent up. very nice guild we had that day. (ok still :P)
But as a hard working father, I loved it sometimes to roam
just on my own. Kids all to bed, wife reading a book, and me relaxing with GW.

Now, we all know every corner in the GW world. Played every mission and
quest over and over. See people go away and new people comming.
And yes I still like wandering in GW even after 4 years with almost 7000 hours
on the counter.
But things have changed.
The things we do now "even with nice guilds and alliances" is grindin for titles
Speed clears in Urgozh, UW , FoW, etc. With some luck a dungeon so now
and than.
What changed things a litle where the Zaishen quests, but they start to stall
to now.
Try to get a nice random party to play in one of the above places just for
fun to have a nice evening with many laughs and no hury.

Hard to find arn't they.

So, as I speak for my self. I would love 7 hero's just to have relax fun teams.
With builds that even the wurst noobs wouldnt use. But o men wouldt that
give a lot of fun.
And as I said. That won't stop me playing with real people. Aslong there is no
limit on what build I can play.
My guidies know me and respect that I often play with funny builds.

Really there is no good reason alive that would justify not allowing 7 hero's
in the PvE world.

Aldric · Jul 30, 2009, 01:04 PM // 13:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Yawn.

Gimme 7 hero's or gimme this , either way i'm happy.

I am playing alot more with people these days with ZQ making pugs a tad more popular and my guild being a bit more active now that ZQ are up and running but I do still run stuff on my own when noones around and having to take henchmen with really shite builds just gets on my tits.

Zahr Dalsk · Jul 30, 2009, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Wrong. I am a very good teammate in groups as anyone who has played with me will attest.

I really doubt it. You've always been (in blunt and honest terms) a fun-hating asshole in these threads; why would I believe you'd be any different ingame?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

If people are having fun at the expense of the game as a whole thats not great.

Good thing 7 heroes would not be at expense of the game, then. They'd improve it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

This is a multiplayer online game. You play in the same world as me. The game you want is a singleplayer offline game where you have no effect on my world and I have no effect on yours.

This is an instanced game. I do NOT play in the same world as you. Neither of us has an effect on the other. Ergo the only reason you can dislike the idea of 7 heroes is because you are a spiteful little person.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Perhaps you misunderstood or perhaps I worded it wrong. Either way, I was responding to the people who want the singleplayer server. That would be fine, as long as that world does not mix with the online server.

But every Guild Wars server is already a singleplayer server with multiplayer support. We call this "instanced gameplay."

7 hero gameplay will never affect a PUG player like you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

You can't say that, because your playstyle is not the one that was imposed on.

Except you want to impose your playstyle on us. Why would we want that? You're probably a horribly unpleasant person to play with, just as you are to speak to here.

Lishy · Jul 30, 2009, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Come on anet. Implement this single update for the content update plz plz plz plz pzlz plz plz pzlz plzzzzzzz plooooooooooo0000000000oooooooox

DreamWind · Jul 30, 2009, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Meh...I shouldn't have got involved in this thread (again). Too late now I guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

So I wonder how many other people that read this thread are going to be completely avoiding the character 'Dark Dreamwind' if found ingame.

About as many as are avoiding your posts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

That's your right as a customer, but judging and ridiculing people because they wouldn't mind to pay for the upgrade is cheap.

No its not. Anybody who would pay for 7 heroes IMO is nuts, just like I think anybody who paid for a bunch of other stuff in this game is nuts. It did give me a new respect for Anet though...in their ability to exploit the nuts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gun Pierson

No, PvE is an instanced game, we don't play in the same world. Our avatars can use the same towns to start from so we have the option to co-op an instanced area.

I will post more on this later, because a bunch of people seem to be using this argument to "prove" me wrong. The argument that this is an instanced game and thus nobody or nothing affects anybody else is RETARDED.

First, everything input into the game at all affects me whether I use it or not or whether you use it or not. If Anet puts 7 heroes into the game, it immediately affects you and me whether I use them or not (assuming I play the game).

Second, you can't say that if you do something it doesn't affect me because you "aren't in the same world". You are in the same game as me. I don't care if its instanced or not. This is not Mario Bros. You can't say anything should be input in the game as long as you have fun with it. You are in the same game as me...I have as much a right to argue something SHOULDN't be in the game as you do to argue that something SHOULD be in the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by byteme!

You're playing the wrong &^%!@! game. Multiplayer and Singeplayer has been an OPTION since DAY 1. I don't share my instances with you unless you're in my party. Never ever. You say we share the same world and yet we're worlds apart.

Sure singleplayer has been an option from day 1...but the singleplayer on day 1 is a far cry from the singleplayer people are asking for today. Henchmen made the game a multiplayer game FIRST with a singleplayer option. Now people want a singleplayer game FIRST and a multiplayer option. Big difference.

And you are another one using the instanced argument. I responded to that, but more on that later as well when I get to Zahr's post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pamelf

I know I'm not the only one who will say the only reason I bought this game because it was stated from the beginning that you could play the game solo if you so chose. If it had said on the box that it was multiplayer only and that all single player content would be offline, I would simply not have bought this game at all.

Anet knew who they were marketing to. And it was to people like me, and all those who want the option of BOTH SOLO AND MULTIPLAYER. They marketed is as a choice.

That is fine, and you have the right to that opinion. That doesn't mean that Anet intended for the game to be a solo game to the degree people want it to be now though. It is pretty clear that Anet wanted people to have the multiplayer experience, or they wouldn't have originally designed their game the way they did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

I really doubt it. You've always been (in blunt and honest terms) a fun-hating asshole in these threads; why would I believe you'd be any different ingame?

From my experience, people in game are generally easier to get along with than people on these forums (such as you). Thus, I am generally also easy to get along with there as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Good thing 7 heroes would not be at expense of the game, then. They'd improve it.

According to who? You have factual evidence of this claim?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

This is an instanced game. I do NOT play in the same world as you. Neither of us has an effect on the other. Ergo the only reason you can dislike the idea of 7 heroes is because you are a spiteful little person.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. You ARE in the same world as me whether you see it or not. I see so many people saying "7 heroes wouldn't affect you so why do you care?" Because it is in MY world that I play in is why. Instanced or not doesn't mean anything in this case if we have the ability to interact in the same instances. You might as well say if somebody drops a bomb in Africa it doesn't affect me because I live in America. Your argument is stupid.

It is stupid for more reasons than just that. Would you say "X skill doesn't affect you and you don't have to use it thus it should be in the game" as well? Would you say "I am having fun duping, and since it doesn't affect you it should be in the game because I'm having fun with it".
What I'm trying to say here is you have to give GOOD REASONS 11 heroes should be in the game...if you just say "because it would be fun" or "because I can use them and it wouldn't affect you" or "you don't have to use them", then your argument is worthless and I probably won't respond to it again after this. Me and Bryant have been over this a lot in the past (probably in this very thread even...I don't remember), and he is probably one of the only people who gives any legit arguments whatsoever in favor of this, even though I still disagree with him too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

But every Guild Wars server is already a singleplayer server with multiplayer support.

The way I look at it...the Guild Wars servers are multiplayer with singleplayer support.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

7 hero gameplay will never affect a PUG player like you.

Who said I was a Pug player. >.>

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Except you want to impose your playstyle on us. Why would we want that?

You are arguing for 7 heroes. If that happened, it could impose on some peoples' playstyle. It would not impose on yours because instead you want a CHANGE to the game to FIT your playstyle regardless of other people. This is just semantics at this point. In reality, numerous changes to the game over the years have imposed on my playstyle...but I am not whining about that here. YOUR PLAYSTYLE WOULD NOT BE THE ONE IMPOSED ON if 7 HEROES WAS IMPLEMENTED. /endrant

makosi · Jul 30, 2009, 10:47 PM // 22:47

If they do do it, it will probably cost us $9.99 or £6.99 per extra hero allowed in our characters' parties.

:-(

Bryant Again · Jul 30, 2009, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

It is pretty clear that Anet wanted people to have the multiplayer experience, or they wouldn't have originally designed their game the way they did.

Eh, given the massive amount of restrictions going against the multiplayer, I can't say I agree.

Zahr Dalsk · Jul 31, 2009, 12:52 AM // 00:52

Looks like I need to break out the old image that explains GW was always meant to be a singleplayer supporting game.

Dark Paladin X · Jul 31, 2009, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Has this been suggested like a million times.

Although I do find it nice to have seven heroes since I could set up hero builds that can be better than henchies, ANet probably won't implement this for a million years, thinking it may be overpowered. I really don't need seven heroes, I simply whip out my discordway heroes, two healers, and two other henchmen which vary depend on location.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Yawn.

I actually kinda like that idea, incorporating your hero builds into the available henchmen in the area.

DreamWind · Jul 31, 2009, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Eh, given the massive amount of restrictions going against the multiplayer, I can't say I agree.

Well...the restrictions were certainly a problem Anet never fully dealt with. Over time they did remove many, but not all of them. I don't think the restrictions are evidence that they didn't want a multiplayer game though. If anything they wanted a multiplayer game but didn't fully know how to do it. The fact that the game was PvP grounded originally but had many flaws sort of shows this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Looks like I need to break out the old image that explains GW was always meant to be a singleplayer supporting game.

Looks like I need to break out the old counter to that image, which states that henchmen are not the same as heroes, and which also states that the box has many things printed on it that Anet no longer follows. Frown.

While I'm posting, I'd like to address the people who say "I want 7 heroes because people are annoying to play with". Have you ever considered that maybe you are the annoying one? Just a thought.